Disillusionment with politics

[Noel]

I wasn't sure if this deserved a spot in the current news section, since Australia has just gone through an election, and the new government in the UK has just passed the 100 day mark, but i'm just wondering, since most of the people on this forum are young, do you still have faith in politics?

Like a lot of young people I know, during the May 2010 elections in the UK i was quite whipped up in support of the Liberal Democrats, in a hope that there was a small chance that we would have a government who would support what i really wanted; a green economy, social justice, improved social mobility but maintain economic growth and well-being. I canvassed for the Liberal candidate in my constituency, I put up posters, and on election night i was unsurprisingly disappointed, since the party I supported didn't do as well as they'd hoped.

But, there did seem to be light at the end of the tunnel - no party had an an absolute majority, which meant the Liberals held the balance of power. Now they are in coalition with the conservatives and driving through massive austerity measures which, according to a recent IFS report are "regressive" and hit the poorest families hardest (and as personal wealth increases, you are damaged financially less, until you hit the very highest bracket of earnings). And now it seems the party I hope would change things has jumped into bed with a party I have very little in the way of agreement with.

After all this, it even looks possible that the referendum on voting reform (which was a deal maker in the coalition) may not even make it through parliament.

Does anyone else feel disillusioned with politics (not just in the UK)?

For me it seems there is no party on the left which can plausibly form a government at anytime in the future - the labour party are centrists (and are probably going to have David Miliband leading them in the future) and left us with a huge wealth gap, the conservatives are on the right and the liberals seem to have given up on their ideas of fairness for all. Now i feel as if all i can vote for are the greens, an independent or respect party candidate - essentially wasting my vote (unless i live in Brighton and Hove - congratulations!).

Thoughts?

[Theikos]

the problem with people who lose faith in politics is that they expect drastic progress to occur all at once without any obstacles to delay the process.

[FreeDee]

the problem with people who lose faith in politics is that they expect drastic progress to occur all at once without any obstacles to delay the process.

Or possibly because their government sends the country backwards, breaks promises and cuts spending to essential services....

[Noel]

the problem with people who lose faith in politics is that they expect drastic progress to occur all at once without any obstacles to delay the process.

Well, not really. It just feels like we are in an endless cycle of one government stripping away what the last government did and essentially progressing no where. For example the national health service in the UK is performing at the best it's been in decades (mostly due to the actions of the last government) - and now, probably due to political ideology, our new government seeks to change how the system works and in some way go towards privatising the state healthcare system.

On other things like voting reform, this is an issue where the smaller parties have been banging their heads against a brick wall for decades.

I don't know where you are from (Scotland/USA?) but part of the problem here is that the voting system in the UK makes it almost impossible to change the way the system works. The two major parties have disproportionate numbers of seats to the percentage of the popular vote they receive - so the two parties which have the voting power to change the voting system won't do this, since it is in their interest to keep it the way it is.

Many other things never seem to change because the system is designed to prevent change.

And i agree with fdb. When i went to vote this year (for the first time) a man outside the polling station said "make a note of all the promises your candidate/party makes and see if they stick to them" - i did, they didn't stick to them.

[Graeme]

It's a fact of life that most voters are fucking retarded, and as such will vote in droves for whichever party the Sun tells them to

[Nadia]

the problem is the government is so fucking complex and bureacratic, it takes a ridiculous amount of time for just one policy to take effect because it has to be evaluated and approved at so many different levels. As a result, the government can never swiftly and promptly take action on any issue so progress is always inhibited

[Theikos]

yea, you're all right, i'm wrong. because women shouldn't be allowed to vote, blacks aren't actually human beings and should all be slaves owned by white men, communists should be executed, people in 2010 are generally worse off than people in 1910, etc. etc.

there's a reason it takes forever to get something done; if the system was set up so that "change" could take place rapidly, then think about how dangerous of a system that would be.

[Gav]

I wasn't sure if this deserved a spot in the current news section, since Australia has just gone through an election, and the new government in the UK has just passed the 100 day mark, but i'm just wondering, since most of the people on this forum are young, do you still have faith in politics?

Yes. Democracy? No.

Like a lot of young people I know, during the May 2010 elections in the UK i was quite whipped up in support of the Liberal Democrats, in a hope that there was a small chance that we would have a government who would support what i really wanted; a green economy, social justice, improved social mobility but maintain economic growth and well-being.

I just threw up a little.

I canvassed for the Liberal candidate in my constituency, I put up posters, and on election night i was unsurprisingly disappointed, since the party I supported didn't do as well as they'd hoped.

Fair enough, everybody was expecting the Lib Dems to make a gain of around ten seats.

It's amusing that the Lib Dems spent nearly all their money on this campaign, and didn't make any gains. They also fought incredibly dirtily in Con/Lib marginals, so it's amazing we have a coalition at all.

After all this, it even looks possible that the referendum on voting reform (which was a deal maker in the coalition) may not even make it through parliament.

Good, nobody wants AV. Either have FPTP or have some form of PR. AV is not PR. My biggest worry? Capita or Serco will get the contract for the electronic voting machines, and something will go horrifyingly wrong. (Yes, our votes are still counted by hand!)

There is no party on the left which can plausibly form a government at anytime in the future

We agree!

Well, not really. It just feels like we are in an endless cycle of one government stripping away what the last government did and essentially progressing no where.

Where do you think we should be progressing to?

For example the national health service in the UK is performing at the best it's been in decades (mostly due to the actions of the last government)

In England, maybe (which isn't such a huge achievement considering it's still a relatively new idea - it's obviously going to be performing better now that it was 60 years ago). However, because some crazy nationalists decided that the Welsh needed their own government, we in Wales be at least ten years behind England for the foreseeable future.

- and now, probably due to political ideology, our new government seeks to change how the system works and in some way go towards privatising the state healthcare system.

What?

On other things like voting reform, this is an issue where the smaller parties have been banging their heads against a brick wall for decades.

See above.

Many other things never seem to change because the system is designed to prevent change.

Yes, the system we've used since parliamentary democracy was established has stopped any change from happening to the country. Our country is the same now as it was hundreds of years ago.

And i agree with fdb. When i went to vote this year (for the first time) a man outside the polling station said "make a note of all the promises your candidate/party makes and see if they stick to them" - i did, they didn't stick to them.

As you said, they've had 100 days...

-----------------------

All of the above, plus, it'd be really swell if we left the EU.

[Noel]

Haha Gav, in response to your throwing up, as i wrote that paragraph i did feel like i was regurgitating the LD manifesto... and i just saw Nick Clegg giving in a speech in my head, it made me cringe.

And i know where you're coming from when you talk about AV not really being the best system in the world. I suppose if we change to it now, it could mean it's not changed again (possibly to PR) for a long time and people would argue that the costs/upheaval would be too great to change it again in such a short amount of time.

And I would like to progress to a point where a child from a working class family has as much chance as being a success as someone from a wealthy background, where we lead by example and get rid of our useless nuclear deterrent, close the wealth gap and eradicate child poverty.

And really? wales is behind? I was always under the impression that they were a little more progressive and had a disproportionate amount of NHS funding? But on the plus side, i suppose there are some blessings in having your own parliament - you may have dodged some of the less successful government moves (whatever they may be).

On the privatizing of the NHS i was referring to the conservatives encouraging the private sector to have a greater role in the NHS, and i believe they are hoping NHS cutbacks will be filled in by the private sector.

And i don't remember details, but i think voting reform has been something pushed by the liberal democrats and their parent parties in the 70s and 80s.

And I think the EU is a bit of a problem at the moment, their legislative process is crazy, and the laws they pass may not be appropriate for many people in certain countries. And i am divided on the idea of the European union. The world has changed, and the UK is not the powerhouse it once was, so perhaps blocking with other developed nations in areas of security and energy and trade agreements is not such a bad thing?



Also, theiko you are really trying to compare apples and oranges - all those things you quoted took more than votes to change things - they took the struggle of millions of people and a change in the ideology of the western world. I really know little about history, but they all seem huge changes in the way we act and think - these changes are relatively small and i don't really think there is as much will to change the way things are now compared to the will that existed to emancipate black people... there is a huge difference between fighting for fundamental freedom and insisting parties stick to their manifesto pledges.

[Gav]

Haha Gav, in response to your throwing up, as i wrote that paragraph i did feel like i was regurgitating the LD manifesto... and i just saw Nick Clegg giving in a speech in my head, it made me cringe.

I read that as Nick Clegg giving head? Now, that's a cringeworthy thought. That said, he and Louis Theroux were apparently very close in Westminster...

And i know where you're coming from when you talk about AV not really being the best system in the world. I suppose if we change to it now, it could mean it's not changed again (possibly to PR) for a long time and people would argue that the costs/upheaval would be too great to change it again in such a short amount of time.

Just to clarify - I'm completely for FPTP, and against PR. I was simply saying it should be all or nothing.

And I would like to progress to a point where a child from a working class family has as much chance as being a success as someone from a wealthy background,

To be honest, I think that's a goal of every political party...

where we lead by example and get rid of our useless nuclear deterrent

close the wealth gap

In response to this, I point you to this wonderful video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHA7YXsu110

and eradicate child poverty.

I think, again, this is a goal of everybody, not to mention every political party.

And really? wales is behind?

Oh, good lord, yes.

On the privatizing of the NHS i was referring to the conservatives encouraging the private sector to have a greater role in the NHS, and i believe they are hoping NHS cutbacks will be filled in by the private sector.?

The NHS already depends on large companies such as Capita and Serco (take a look, between them, they seem to run most of the countries public services!)

And I think the EU is a bit of a problem at the moment,

This is the understatement of the century. Only today they announced that they were going to significantly increase their budget next year, when every country in the EU seems to be cutting theirs.

The world has changed, and the UK is not the powerhouse it once was, so perhaps blocking with other developed nations in areas of security and energy and trade agreements is not such a bad thing?

I'd love a withdrawal from the European Union, but for Britain to become a member of the EFTA. It's utter madness that we can't negotiate our own trade agreements with other countries at the moment.

[Nikolic]

Lol, I'm not going to get started on the whole EU thing. I just easilly give examples of areas where the EU benefits us greatly to trounce anything that Gav has wrote lol.

I totally agree with the thread though.

[Gav]

Lol, I'm not going to get started on the whole EU thing. I just easilly give examples of areas where the EU benefits us greatly to trounce anything that Gav has wrote lol.

Please do.

[Theikos]

Oh stfu, are people not better off now than 50-100 years ago? Politics work. It just takes time...and rightfully so.

[Billyboy]

problem in the uk is that all the major parties have more or less the same agenda and the smaller parties are a waste of a vote, it makes no real difference who you vote for

we need pr

[Nikolic]

Something like 60% of UK trade is now with EU countries.

The Regional Fund (old name now) has plowed vast somes of moneys into some of the most deprived areas of the UK.

Cheaper calls for everyone abroad.

Makes it far far easier for us brits to move out to Spain.

4 weeks statutory pay for sickness.

The list goes on.

[Theikos]

why can't we agree that pollitical disagreements in 2010 =/= a failure of politics as a whole

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 PM ----------

otherwise, lets pray to an invisible bitch in the sky to fix our problems cause we can't do it ourselves.

[Justin]

meh, i never expect to get my way. i've come to terms with the fact that there isn't even a political party catering to my beliefs. the democrats are a hodgepodge group of people with widely different beliefs, with factions large enough to be their own political entities. the republicans make me embarrassed to be an american. but i'm not going to stop voting, as i feel it's my duty as a citizen of a successful and stable democracy, and the democrats are close enough to my beliefs that i'd much rather have them in power than the republicans. and i don't want to be one of those people who just sits around bitching about everything but never makes any attempt to change things.

[Gav]

Something like 60% of UK trade is now with EU countries.

The Regional Fund (old name now) has plowed vast somes of moneys into some of the most deprived areas of the UK.

Cheaper calls for everyone abroad.

Makes it far far easier for us brits to move out to Spain.

4 weeks statutory pay for sickness.

The list goes on.

The reason our trade with EU countries is so high is because we are not, under EU law, allowed to negotiate our own free trade agreements. Whilst 60% may seem high, have a look at the value of that trade.

Why on earth can't the British Government fund deprived areas in the UK? Surely that would be more logical than paying the EU, converting that sum to Euros, plowing it through a huge bureaucracy (and anybody who has ever tried to get ESF - European Social Fund - money will know exactly what I mean), converting it back to sterling and then paying out?

Cheaper calls? I can't even comment on that.

Everybody seems to think that before the EU, movement of people was impossible? I can move to the USA, and they're not in the EU?

Who's to say that 4 weeks statutory pay couldn't/wouldn't have been implemented by a British Government?

[Billyboy]

why can't we agree that pollitical disagreements in 2010 =/= a failure of politics as a whole

politics hasn't failed, just our electoral system

[Theikos]

well that's what i'm sayin. yea, certain aspects within "politics" may fail but politics itself has not failed. and history proves that it really never has. yea, people complain about how much the government "sucks" today but its still the best government the world has ever seen compared to the rest of human history

[Gav]

well that's what i'm sayin. yea, certain aspects within "politics" may fail but politics itself has not failed. and history proves that it really never has. yea, people complain about how much the government "sucks" today but its still the best government the world has ever seen compared to the rest of human history

I more or less agree with you. Your point reminded me of an argument I found myself in the other day, when someone was praising just how many government services you could now access online. I was amazed that it was seen by them as a Labour party achievement by when, realistically, whoever was in charge would have done the same.

[Nikolic]

But if we left the EU, there are powerful economic theories that predict we would still want to trade with the EU, but we would face higher trading costs and therefore be worse off. I'm really not going to go into detail of this, but it was a whole module of my course this year on spatial analysis.

You also forget the number of companies that invest in the UK purely because we also get them into the European market.

I'm not too sure what planet your on, but the European Union is now the largest and most powerful trading area in the world.

You can just up sticks and move to America if you wished, its the same with Austrailia, you have to fill in a whole raft of forms proving you can find a worthwhile job out there etc etc.

Sorry these replies have been quite basic, they're all from my phone. I just irritated when people slag the EU off when they know nothing about it. I'm not saying the EU is perfect, because we do learn about the disadvantages of it too, but suggested we leave it is really idiotic.

[Nick]

I agree with what Nadia will say.

[Jasmine]

i'm torn on the EU. they've provided great benefits but their legislative process is bizarre and they have encroached into a whole new sphere instead of primarily focusing on economic activity - so i can see why some people would have concerns with regards to that. i can't be bothered to list the ins and outs of it, but i do not think that the UK should leave the EU - for me, the pros outweigh the cons. like someone already mentioned, the UK isn't the powerhouse it once was and cannot (on its own) compete with emerging superpowers such as china and india

[Gav]

But if we left the EU, there are powerful economic theories that predict we would still want to trade with the EU, but we would face higher trading costs and therefore be worse off. I'm really not going to go into detail of this, but it was a whole module of my course this year on spatial analysis.

You also forget the number of companies that invest in the UK purely because we also get them into the European market.

I'm not too sure what planet your on, but the European Union is now the largest and most powerful trading area in the world.

You can just up sticks and move to America if you wished, its the same with Austrailia, you have to fill in a whole raft of forms proving you can find a worthwhile job out there etc etc.

Sorry these replies have been quite basic, they're all from my phone. I just irritated when people slag the EU off when they know nothing about it. I'm not saying the EU is perfect, because we do learn about the disadvantages of it too, but suggested we leave it is really idiotic.

You have no idea. What you're describing is the EEC/EFTA, which no longer exists. The EU now no longer exists soley for the purposes of Free Trade and Free Movement of People (something which I vehemently support, hence why I'd love it if we could join EFTA). It has surpassed that to create the precursor to an EU superstate.

You should really read the Lisbon Treaty. When you get to the paragraph about an EU Military Force, I think you'll begin to see my Point of View.

[Jonny]

If you think things take long to get through government now, imagine how much longer they would take if we had pr! FPTP all the way!

And get the lib dems out of government.

[Billyboy]

If you think things take long to get through government now, imagine how much longer they would take if we had pr! FPTP all the way!

under pr changes of public opinion would have more of an effect on the make up of parliament, giving parties more or less of an influence, which would be reflected in government policies. As public opinion changes so would policies

change would only be harder if you're trying to introduce changes the public don't want, which is how it should be as politicians are supposed to be our representatives rather than our rulers


allowing a party to form a majority government when the majority of the people don't want them in power is not representative

[Grim901]

You have no idea. What you're describing is the EEC/EFTA, which no longer exists. The EU now no longer exists soley for the purposes of Free Trade and Free Movement of People (something which I vehemently support, hence why I'd love it if we could join EFTA). It has surpassed that to create the precursor to an EU superstate.

You should really read the Lisbon Treaty. When you get to the paragraph about an EU Military Force, I think you'll begin to see my Point of View.

This is the most sensible post i've seen in this thread.

If the EU had stuck to its original principles rather than encroaching on superstate status with it's constant legislation in every area of our lives then i'd have supported it.

@Nikolic: From the sounds of that module title I assume your in some kind of business or economics related course. If that's the case then you may not have covered the areas that annoy me the most about the current state of the EU. My politics module on the EU covered the whole lot and left us to draw our own conclusions.

An example, a few months back the EU (through a Belgian MEP I believe) demanded that Britain allow EU military forces complete access to any and all British overseas territories and bases, effectively ending our own control over them. I'll be damned if a Belgian is going to dictate what goes on a British military base in British territory, especially since we usually let them use our bases when they ask anyway. Similar situation has occurred with the EU saying they expect use of our upcoming aircraft carriers when they demand it. I don't see them paying £5bn for them, so why should they be allowed to demand them?

Oh and we'll see how stable the EU is if we get a double dip recession and Spain/Portugal/Ireland/Greece need bailing out. It'd end the Euro and cripple the EU in it's current state.

[FreeDee]

well that's what i'm sayin. yea, certain aspects within "politics" may fail but politics itself has not failed. and history proves that it really never has. yea, people complain about how much the government "sucks" today but its still the best government the world has ever seen compared to the rest of human history

Even though i still say the govt (not just present but over the last 30 years or so) sucks, i will agree with this.

[Gav]

An example, a few months back the EU (through a Belgian MEP I believe) demanded that Britain allow EU military forces complete access to any and all British overseas territories and bases, effectively ending our own control over them. I'll be damned if a Belgian is going to dictate what goes on a British military base in British territory, especially since we usually let them use our bases when they ask anyway. Similar situation has occurred with the EU saying they expect use of our upcoming aircraft carriers when they demand it. I don't see them paying £5bn for them, so why should they be allowed to demand them?

Hate to break it to you old bean, but Lisbon already allows the EU to do this.